BuilderBot: How best to release it???

 Sounds like a great concept please keep us posted on release.

What Linden Lab needs to do is discontinue allowing non LL compiles to connect to Second Life. All open source contributions can enter via Snow Globe.

What Rezzable needs to do is not allow anonymous comments from people hiding because they know they are felons.

Blocking non-Linden software from accesing the grid would be a huge step backwards. SL is not some stupid game but a serious platform. Serious platforms benefit from open development.

I find this a total outrage, and I find the cynical and nihilistic position of Rezzable, which we've seen many times before, to be an outright crime here.

Indeed  this *is* evil, and indeed, as a commentor has said at Dusan Writer's blog, Rezzable is a disgruntled tenant vandalizing the place, but what's more, vandalizing other tenants who previously had no beef with them, or even knowledge of them in many cases, whatever their belief in their own popularity and right to set policy by diktat.

It's the same mentality that goes into terrorism.

Of course, one can provide the quintessential Mom's answer to the whine that "but maaaaaa, everybody's doing it" "If your friends told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?" but here, the cynics don't care if everybody jumps off a bridge.

The reality is that even Adam Zaius, who presided over the reverse-engineering and re-engineering of Second Life into OpenSim, was not so cynical or nihilist. He did not release the code and posted a statement that it would be misused, so he would not.

All this time, we've heard a hundred times that Second Inventory would never be a problem because it would never copy prims for which someone didn't have rights. And critics said -- but it sets the stage for theft. And now it has.

I utterly repudiate the idea that "just because you can" and "just because there's an analog hole" that you are entitled to copyright theft. You aren't on the Internet, where "print screen" or "right click/save as copy" defeats copyright routinely, and you are not in virtual worlds, either.

Despicable, and amounting to industrial espionage and sabotage.

I think it is no matter if someone wants to copy something, then he/she also has the option to copy it, like Meerkat-Viewer (its Open-Source and its not hard to remove the Permission for copy other content) or the CopyBot (its OpenSource, a good coder can modifed the trunk) or Second Inventory.. and many more..

BuilderBot sounds great and i dont can wait for a release :) so let's not long to wait on you

Big Thank in Advance @ Rezzable

The best way to release this is to keep it in its box in the Rezzable offices, this is pretty irresponsible in its present form. Whereas there are good use cases for such a tool, making copying other people's content even easier really isn't a good use case, nor should a responsible company with content creators rights at heart be associating themselves with such a tool.

Ignoring SL permissions? That's terribly irresponsible. Charging 100USD isn't going to alter the fact that this is a major nose-thumbing at every other content creator in SL.

Main issues with the DRM -- 1) if it is already yours, then what value does checking the DRM add? 2) if we put DRM on it and it is opensource, a ripper would then avoid the DRM easily if the intent is to misuse it. So therefore a DRM version would need to be compiled. Keeping the code open would allow for the most improvement and further use of the code for related purposes. 3) copybot and various other large-scale ripping tools are already out there, so they avoid DRM already. So if someone wanted to rip content from a sim that is already possible and in fact happening in SL today.

I think we are trying to provide a tool to serious content developers. We have lost significant amounts of work due to mistakes or having to abandon sims. It would have been nice to have such a  tool and now have our own archive of our stuff. We have it in fact in pieces, but really it would have been more effective to have entire sim-scale builds.

This is the kinda of thing you can get in OpenSim and many other development platforms. Really SL could have made it possible to save content in a more effective manner other than linking stuff and putting into inventory. While you can import stuff (and pay to do it) in SL there is no service or planned service to let you export your content. LL does of course have this capability.

"copybot and various other large-scale ripping tools are already out there, so they avoid DRM already. So if someone wanted to rip content from a sim that is already possible and in fact happening in SL today."

That is it what i say.

When i have a complete Sim and have many time and money invested, dont can backup my stuff.. and why? LindenLab dont plans a backup-function,  so iam search for an alternative and not all are bad ripper..

You are blatantly a thief.

@ Sin -- I think the point really is there are no proper controls possible. If we were to provide a service, it would be expensive and slow. Only a few people would benefit from it.  So it is an option that we considered, but in most instances will not help most content creators.  It is not that much effort btw to take the libomv code and make a copybot. We have added features that are mainly useful for content creators who lack such tools to handle their stuff now.

SI is far superior to this as they have actually displayed some respect for creators and they are constantly improving it , this will most likely be "broken" by LL and the creator will disappear with your cash , he clearly has  no respect for content creators and will happily run with your money when it breaks. I have already chased a content thief to another grid and I do not wish to make a habbit of it.

What others have said: this is like a final "heck with you" to Second Life and its community that has supported your company for the last two years. We all know that copybot -- in spite of whatever intentions were behind it -- has been largely used to steal content. "Builderbot" simply makes it that much easier. This is deplorable. While there are others involved with Rezzable that I call friends, I find that I can no longer support or purchase Rezzable's content knowing that this is out there, just waiting to take away my and others' content rights.

Really, people. Check your birth certificates again and then review the difference in feedback and insults. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Anyways, I'm not for this project being released. Not only does it present critical risks to content creators protecting their work, but there are already tools and methods out there that, when combined, can protect a work. One of type is the build packager, such as the Rez-Faux; this tool can be used to save builds that are too large to be connected into a prim box, be re-rezzed as it was, and, for build-sellers, be given to customers. I don't know all the features or limitaitons, but these tools have become more complex and able to handle more over the year. If you need a back-up on SL, you coul make an alternative account and place a copy of the build (if it has the rights of transer) onto that. If it doesn't, try making multiple copies within your own inventory and put them in different places; you might try making multiple versions in case SL decides that part of it can't be rezzed due to some reason or another. As for terraforming, I'm not sure if it's possible to save what's done in world, but there are free programs to make your own land files that can be stored on your computer and used on the main grid or an open.

Admittedly, a lot of the main grid versus open-source ones goes over my head. I have friends that use them to test products before bringing it live so they don't have to worry about upload costs or major area disasters. However, pulling from the main onto an open, especially if it's overriding essential permissions, is unsafe and far too problematic. Money can't buy creditability. From experience, the sanest people can loose it and do some stupid, hurtful things. While there are already copy-bots out there, that doesn't mean this is right. The concept needs to be considerably rethought and perhaps filed away without release.

Sell this to the Lindens - your disdain for them is well known, and then you can leave with a feeling that you have one upped them in the manner to which you most feel you need. Then the Lindens can fix what you couldn't and make it into a viable piece of software that can be used responsibly. Not that I am saying LL is necessarily the the best place for it, but better than some of the villains that are currently plaguing the grid with bots already.

Yes feed your need to beat LL - anyone who reads SL related blogs are aware of your feelings on that level, but please respect those who have laboured and are staying in SL.  

Given your previous few posts regarding leaving SL to move to other grids, this smacks of tossing a grenade into the building just before you leave. 

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Every time Linden Lab leaves a chronic issue unanswered, such as the 25 group limit hampering the social networking/groupware functions that are often cited as the reason for SL being a Web 2.0 app, a solution comes up: HippoGroups, SubscribeOMatic, relying on outside solutions like Yahoo/GoogleGroups/MSN Communities/etc.

Sometimes, the solutions are clean, but other times they cut corners and ignore certain niceties to get the job done.

In this case, the Lab has failed to provide a simple method of convenienly allowing user-created content to be backed up, exported, or even migrated from one location to another.

Rezzable has developed such a solution, but it's one that is certain to cause problems if it ends up in the hands of those who aren't using it for the intended purpose of backups/exports/internal migrations.

So, is it right or wrong? Will Rezzable regret releasing such a device?

Ask Robert Oppenheimer, I suppose.

-ls/cm

There is already a device for this, one that respects the rights and permissions set by creators. SecondInventory works just fine, and doesn't screw over everyone else.

Appalling. I've lost all respect for Rezzable. LL should treat this company like any other copybot wielding griefer. Account cancelations and IP bans would be appropriate.

I have been a huge supporter of the Rezzables sim cluter, I think that it is one of the most amazing and artistic builds, well ever. In fact I have modelled some of my own builds after yours. Modelled, not directly copied, stolen, mind you. As a fellow artist, I think that you all know better than to release this tool. Anyone with the amount of collective years on the grid, the tens on thousands of man hours that you all invested into your own sims, you know full well how malicious a tool like this can be. That is my point, and I am sorry to say but you lost a huge fan today.

 There is a phrase here in the UK: "They don't like it up'em" meaning the type of person that can hand it out but doesn't like to get it back - in other words hypocritical. If I may draw your attention to this posting: http://rezzable.com/blog/vint-falken/copyright-the-garden

Vint, care to comment? 

I am anonymous for a good reason , these people have proved themselves to be intent on promoting theft , they are "undesirables" in my SL , these are the sort of people that would carry out a personal attack.

RightAsRain, I would ask you to reconsider releasing this.  You *know* it is ethically questionable at best to release such a tool ~ otherwise, you would have simply released it.

I have always considered you a gentleman and an ethical businessman ~ but release of such code would immediately change that opinion. 

Think it through.  This is a mistake, and I am happy to provide feedback to that effect; apparently, feedback you seek.  Show us ethical behaviour and stand down, and be remembered for your right actions.  It may seem like eating a bit of crow, but I assure you the public will love a humble man trying to do the right thing, even one who made a mistake ~ far more than they will love the guy who will go down in history for unleashing this bot to the script kiddies.  Yes, someday someone may release the very same thing ~ but to attach Rezzable's name, and your name to such an action would be ethically bankrupt in the extreme.

Very Sincerely,

Desmond Shang, Guvnah, Independent State of Caledon.

Rezzable...

Most of us admired your sims in SL, your art, your efforts...

Now, probably most of us dispise you and the bitter group of people you have become. 

I will never visit your works again or in any other way ever support you. 

For those who think this is the end of SL, see what was said about the internet in general and copying over 1 1/2 ago:  http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2008/01/better_than_fre.php

I advise strongly against releasing this tool without permissions checks.

Sincerly, i wonder if the limit of the ethics of Rezzable, as business, is 100 US$. Or the price of protecting the rights of creators for Rezzable is 100 US$. Quite cheap i would say...

Releasing a tool like that, with no controls about the rights and owners of the assets copied, is really a "double-side knife" and i wonder what RaR would think if someone uses it to copy the "Greenies" sim and rezzes it on a private open sim server...

@ToxicMenges: Sure. We are only using the BuilderBot to backup our sims to the Rezzable Grid before removing them. For all those items on these sims, we purchased the full rights from the creators, or they were by people working at that time full time or on contract base for us. We double check this after 're-rezzing' the sims on our grids. So we are not transporting anything over we do not hold the rights to.

Of course, they are no copies of the Garden of NPIRL, as at that time we did not hold such a powerful tool as BuilderBot yet, not would making copies of such sims appropriate, as we clearly stated, we do not hold the rights to any of the works - except those of our own builders that were made within 'Rezzable Worktime' or that we payed for the rights - on those sims.

 Vint, that is not my point and I won't question your intelligence to assume that you think it is.

Just on the offchance that you left your intellect somewhere, I will make things crystal clear.

You find it acceptable to throw a DMCA around when it is YOUR property that is being copied and sold without your consent, yet it appears to be perfectly acceptable for Rezzable to even think about releasing a tool that will enble others to steal from others. 

Most companies do not throw their toys around in such a virulent and destructive way when they have not received what they think they are owed. 

Rezzable, it is time for you to grow up and start treating the residents of SL with a little more respect. Take your long running vendetta to LL and deal with it with them, do not harm the economy of SL, and ruin the hard work of countless content creators who have done nothing to you. 

I am amazed how quickly Rezzable have ruined their reputation - all that work wasted. All of that beautiful artwork. You had the promise of so much. One spiteful and selfish act, without thought for anyone else, will seal your fate.

I am sad that the evidence of your foolishness will almost certainly be the downfall of your company. Who will want to do business with anyone as foolish and shortsighted as Rezzable?

I'd have to say that the people have spoken. They do not want this released in any way. Thank you for asking us first. 

Nevertheless, this tool could save some pixelated butt. I can't stop thinking about how Sabine Stonebender woke up one day to find the work of nearly four years - Zero Point - gone. Up in smoke. Because of an accounting error on LL's part. AND, it was not fixable. 

Then I recall the day I was in too many IMs and returning litter on the first Chakryn parcel, and idiotically returned all my own prims. I won't do that again but that was costly in terms of time and angst.

I would really really appreciate a tool to back up my sim lock, stock and barrel. But if I cannot have it (and yes, the risks do seem to be too great for such a product to be released on the market), I would welcome the opportunity to hire a service to do it.  With all the proper protocols and sign-offs. 

As I understand it, this tool can also be used by anyone to copy other people's content and hardwork much like what CopyBot does but in a simwide level? Is this correct?

I can understand the need for an offline backup tool, I really do. I´ve often thought about getting second inventory myself. Add to this that I´m a open source fan.

However this does seem irresponsible. If you have to release it do it closed code, figure out a way of doing it a better way or just do not release it.

Hell... I´ll even give you a business idea for free. Offer it as a service. Let someone be around to service ppl and companies who needs off world backups. Let there be a responsible rezzable staff person behind every backup. There could potentially be quite a lot of money involved.

From your perspective the BIGGEST concern would be the potential huge badwill that this potentially might get Rezzable. This is a very hot potato and might adventure rezzables good reputation of beeing serious. Would you like the Rezzable name to be affiliated with "content theft", "copybot" and the likes? Badwill travels lightning fast in SL and WILL travel over to other grids with the people migrating.

I guess its a good thing that you actually took it up here to see reactions about it. My answer is that I would never take the risk of badwill for doing something like this.

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Ok, you got me, I'm totally disillusioned now. I mean, sure I have the technical skills of a paramecium with brain damage but even to me, this seems wrong.

Whatever beef one has with LL, whatever almighty dollar sign one kowtows to, still should not ethically permit one to literally hand over the blueprints, password, locker combination, and diary key to every single current and would be thief in the world.

If you guys release this to the public, you're doing nothing more than evidently satisfying some "revenge" factor you have whilst tossing every hard working, honest content creator under the bus.  Continuing to issue the statement "...providing a tool to serious content creators" does not justify what can and will happen.  It's like saying, well we built a concrete dome over Chernobyl and it's perfectly capable of protecting the environment but if something wanted to get inside it could and we can't be held responsible for it. 

I'm going to close with a quote from Crap Mariner above "So, is it right or wrong? Will Rezzable regret releasing such a device? Ask Robert Oppenheimer, I suppose."

I suggest all  "employed" by rezzable quit and sue for damages.. you've just become pariahs due to one mans greed and arrogance. I don't think any one REZZABLERAIN has employed or sponsored is now safe from the damages done by this one Jon Himmoff..

The best you can achieve is stailmate and the attempt to collect funds from IMVU..

Thats the way it wasnt.

WC

With Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

Cmon Really? Clearly you guys have talent and intelligence. But Cmon, It is hard for me to believe you could not have predicted this

kind of response. If you want to sell a product Do It Right. Your worried it will be too "slow"? Big Deal, the DRM is only the most

important part of this kind of product! Have you thought of how doing this will look on your professional resume?

It is like selling a car without brakes. Either finish the job or just keep it to yourselves. And even if you do create a version with DRM

there is NO Way you should release this code open source.

Fuck Corey Linden,

He;s already cashed in and is further fucking up the world for music to be heard beyond your kids bagging on a dumpster in your garage.

More of the same SL/ FIC crap.. but now all the look at me, bruno -shoe selling, mall owning , fashion bitched manginas feel the greed slapping them in the face.

Walter, saw Bruno, drank a martini, then died. Cronkite.

I don't like lynch mobs.

To be true, I don't understand lynch mobs. What to do. I was educated that way.

So.

Let's recapitulate. These people (I mean Rezzable) are proposing to actually give something they have created for free. This means sharing their creations, for naught. Is that sufficiently understood?

How many of the people who are threatening RaR in this thread, even with physical assault (really a break from SL would be very benefical to some people), are actually sharing anything with others?

I could easily write such a tool. You could too. Anybody could. You can just download a copy of the XXXXX viewer, mod its permission checking, and have a perfect, undetectable copy tool. Such tools exist. Such tools are being used right now, while you read this, maybe against your own content.

Rezzable has not released any code, or sold any product. They are asking us. Is that too hard to understand? More than the Linden mafiya are doing with their decisions. Much more. There's even no censorship in this thread (and sometimes I'd like there was, sincerely, given the calliber of some of the comments).

Builderbot is a great tool. I wish I had it when I had to migrate my companies's stuff and my own stuff to Opensim. And, yes, I was the creator. I'm not in the business of stealing other people's work. I don't need it. I do have a RL job and I'm very well paid, thanks. I've never dreamed of becoming rich in Monopoly dollars. Or L$, for that case.

But I can't stand herd mentality. Look. This is the internet, guys and gals. Not a small village business. Take note. Nobody who has a home based business will survive in the 3D world in the following five years. You will either give away your stuff for free, have a million-dollar business, or work for Sony. Or IBM. Or even (yuck!) Linden Labs.

LL has lived for far too many years exploiting a (silly, but very profitable) dream that many people have: living at home, producing some garbage, and becoming suddenly rich in the internet.

Well, this is a silly dream. For the creators, not for LL.

They've created an empire with it.

To the small creators I say: foget it. It it's not rezzable, it will be somebody else.

Don't be hypocrites. Your content is being stolen right now. Rezzable has not invented SL content stealing.

Did the Copybot creators ask about your opinion before releasing it into the wild?

Did SL ask you before banning making love to a child avie, when you can call your partner "my girl" in bed in RL and nobody can object?

Did SL ask you before screwing your business in the Openspace fiasco?

Now. Please.

Give Rezzable some respect, ok?

After all, they are asking us!

If you don't agree, you can always say (educatedly) "NO".

Educatedly, ok? :-)

  /Zonja

Isn't Identity thief worst and easier to do that stealing a sim?

I think it is incredibly selfish and irresponsible to release this without some sort of restriction to copying things you own, rather than other peoples builds and sims. I'm sure that you will go ahead and do it anyway but I don't think it's going to win you many friends.

The argument 'that everyone does it anyway so what's the harm' really isn't a plausible excuse to release something that you know us going to be grossly misused.

>>"But I can't stand herd mentality. Look. This is the internet, guys and gals. Not a small village business. Take note. Nobody who has a home based business will survive in the 3D world in the following five years. You will either give away your stuff for free, have a million-dollar business, or work for Sony. Or IBM. Or even (yuck!) Linden Labs."

Dear wageslave,

While *you* may lack the skills needed, your betters with a little guts and vision will still be doing business in five, ten, and fifty years in 3D worlds.  Some will get far enough to hire and fire obsequious snots like yourself on a whim.

And for those still working, or not working, but *trying* to raise themselves up to a better life without bosses or unpaid overtime or any of the usual humiliation that goes with it, I hope to god that they do not listen to your message of insecurity and hope.  I've seen people waste their entire lives compared to what they could have done, simply because they could not believe in themselves.  Not even for a single day.

May you work hard this week knowing that *you* don't have any option in life, but to make the owners of your company richer.  Just try not to drag the rest of humanity down with you, okay?

Herd mentality, indeed.

~ Desmond Shang, former engineering and management professional, now the owner of multiple businesses and far more successful.

It's interesting to see such heated debate over this issue. Rezzable is not the only group working on such a system. In fact the ability to move content in and out of SL is being developed across the OpenSim community. LL has consistently provided no means of backing up builds or transferring them off the grid.... possibly as it is an issue so fraught with emotion amongst the communtiy :)

The linden official stance is:

CopyBot Infringement - A Terms of Service Violation

Finally, to reiterate our policy on CopyBot:  Any use of it to make infringing copies violates the Terms of Service and may result in suspension or banning of Second Life accounts.  If you believe that a Resident has used CopyBot (or a similar application) to make infringing copies of your content, please file an abuse report and provide as much information as you can to support your claim.  Although technology can’t prevent the copying of data drawn on your screen, we don’t tolerate Residents who seek to profit from infringing use of CopyBot.

We’re sometimes asked why Residents are allowed to have or sell copying devices.  The answer is that there are legitimate uses of a copying mechanism.  It’s the infringement that we don’t allow and won’t tolerate.

(my emphasis... pasted from https://blogs.secondlife.com/community/features/blog/2008/04/11/protecting-your-copyrighted-content )

So the issue is more about infringement of copyright than the ability to copy in the first place, according to linden policy. DCMA is (unfortunately) the only legitimate recourse when problems arise under such a system, as the Lindens already tolerate software that enables copying of in-world content. It may make some folk more relaxed to know that:

• The builderbot has not yet been released to the public... Rezzable is asking first.
• Builderbot currently _only_ allows content to be moved from SL to opensim - a specific use case. Moving content back the other way is not yet integrated and may not be released depending on how the product evolves.
• Builderbot _does_ check ownership on objects, and allows you to back up parts of a sim (such as a parcel) rather than simply a whole, or to only backup items by designated owner(s). 
• Builderbot does not currently back up skins, clothing or scripts... only prims.
• A high level of technical skill is required to utilize the backups builderbot creates - one must have their own opensim server with access to the databases in order to restore the content into a new location.

This is certainly not a magical push button copying tool. There are only a few instances where it actually makes duplication of content easier than it already is - and there are tools available already that are significantly easier to use for those unscrupulous enough to engage in piracy. 

This probably won't make some folk feel much better about possible problems, but I thought it best to mention the above so debate would be better informed about what those potential problems may be :)

... oh well.. hope that helps.... and of course please don't shoot the messenger :P

Pav.

 Pav, 

It's more about the responsibility of Rezzable to keep these tools under control. the cavalier manner with which options were bandied about, and the underlying use to which they could be put that is what appears to be bothering residents (myself included). 

A respectable company would not act in such a way. The actions of Rezzable, even by dint of suggesting that these tools could be made available, show a great lack of forethought, and/or lack of respect for the greater SL community at large. 

 You can't really put the genie back in the bottle. When LL opensourced the viewer -- something which I, personally, benefit from thanks to third-party viewers like Rainbow and Greenlife Emerald -- this was a natural consequence. So, the fact is, how much more trouble does this introduce to content creators than already exists? I'd say practically none. It's a great boon to builders, really.

Will some people abuse this? Probably. But I don't imagine it'll lead to an epidemic, and I think on the positive side it'll help creators move their content across the grids more readily, and back them up against mischance.  There was an amazing 2nd Age Tolkien sim a year or so back that was completely destroyed thanks to one careless sim owner; I can't but imagine that if this tool had existed then, the talented builder who made it would have had a backup on hand and could have restored it just like that.

I work for another metaverse development company, and like Rezzable, we create full-sim builds of original content. We too would love to have a backup/migration tool like this, and have in the past considered creating our own (really, only lack of resources has stopped us). So, yes, I can confirm that there are other "serious content creators" who want such a tool.

But, like many of the other commenters, I have some concerns about releasing it without permission checks. Even if you release it open source, adding permissions checks would be worthwhile (even though other people could remove them). My rationale here is:

1. It stops people from accidently grabbing other people's content when they didn't mean to, which is both a usability and a liability issue.
2. It deflects many lines of criticism, and reduces Rezzable's liability. Without the checks, it's very easy to accuse Rezzable of "giving SL content creators the finger", and might even be considered contributory copyright infringement. (If someone else modifies the source to make a version without the checks, most of the liability would be on them, not you.)
3. It keeps mostly-honest people mostly-honest. Even if they can download a check-less version, having to jump through those extra hoops forces the person to understand that they are (or may be) doing something unlawful.
4. If someone does download and use a checkless version, that could be used as evidence in a court of law that the person was willfully trying to evade copy protection, which would strengthen the case of the copyright owner.

Notice that nowhere in my rationale will you find something like, "It would stop illegal copying". That's for the simple reason that it wouldn't stop it, or even act as a significant deterrent for determined infringers.

If I were in your shoes, I would do the following:

• Release compiled, closed-source versions of SIM2OAR only, with permission checks in place, and also a dialog explaining that copying things you don't have permission to copy is illegal. (Even objects which pass the permission check might be illegal to copy.)
• License the SIM2OAR source and the binaries (and/or source) of the other tools to trusted parties who are willing to pay for the ability to customize it. The license would not be open source; on the countrary, it would prohibit them from distributing it to third parties.

If you really do want to release SIM2OAR as open source, I'd still put in the permission checks and legal warning by default, purely for practical reasons.

 - Jacek

P.S. By the way, if you do release it under the BSD license, you can't prevent enterprise users from using it for free. That's just how the BSD license (and other open source licenses) work.

Sure, things are being stolen already but this isnt only about money. It's not about a bunch of products being copied either. This tool if released publically, will enable thieves to take things that, at large, were never meant to be sold and thats whole sim builds. Copybot obviously isnt efficient enough for it, hence you rarely hear about anything that big being stolen and also the reason why you created this tool.

I keep reading the words 'serious content creators'. How is the passionate work of an artist, that creates a wonderful enviroment for others to enjoy for free, any less serious than the one that monetizes it? It is those people that will *really* get hurt by this, people that spend so much more time on builds than a commercial project ever could because noone would be willing to pay for it. They are not merchants, they dont have some kind of strange monetary reason to put up with thievery and might vanish if their creations get copied and frustration takes over. They let people visit and explore their worlds for free, that does not mean they should be for taking.

It has legit uses and may be a handy too for a small select group of people, but this is not the way it should work. Please do not kid yourself when you speak about legit uses. I know of not one person that uses a copybot for backup purposes, yet having to put up with thieves on a regular basis. So if for 1 legit user of the application there is 10,20 or 100 abusers. Is it really worth it? I feel not.

Please reconsider releasing this.

- Aveline

Sell it to the Lindens so they can provide a service, or provide the service yourselves and make a buck that way. Either way would provide a responsible use of a powerful tool.

Waaaa.... you can really sue peoples about ANYTHING?

I hope not...

 A multitude of well written, reasonable, counterpoints have been presented. I doubt one, or one thousand, more would make a difference. You made nice sims and cute products that lacked a viable market. Your business model failed so you took your proverbial ball and left. Fair enough.  The fact that you are providing a means for thieves to steal from content creators, on your way out, is just sad. There is no logical, or ethical justification for your actions. This is about greed and nothing else. Save yourself some time and spare us any future variations of the company line. Just copy/paste the disingenuous, nonsensical, garbage that you've already written. Maybe some lemmings will believe it and follow you off the virtual world cliff. 

why don't you smart ass know it alls bet them to it

make your own builderbot with the permissions code, make some money yourselves.  or are you just good for pulling other people to bits

Frankly the fact that most Second Life users can't save a copy of what they're looking at means that the current tools suck.  They can get better or continue to stagnate along with SL.  The improved tools can either be developed by a respected brand like Rezzable, or someone else will do it eventually (Jcool410 Wildcat the Ultimate Master Hacker of SL and Creator of Greenlife Emerald glory upon Him)

This is nothing but a fuck you LL thing.

Who cares really. SL is dead in the water.

btw i have a really huge cock these guys can take a copy of and stick up their ass.

kthxbai

Copybot is a TOS violation; This is a TOS violation on steriods.

Nobody on either side of the pro/con debate is arguing that it will be abused. We can all agree on that much.

What I wonder is why a reputable company would knowingly and willingly violate another companies TOS, in a manner that will cause immeasurable financial harm? Further, a company that creates content providing the tool for a thief to do a better job at stealing content!

The damage to both companies, and all the content creators stuck in the middle, far out-weights the benefit of the few for which it has a legitmate purpose.

I believe Rezzable has some bright minds and I believe they've decided to do this - in the most destructive way possible, is not collateral damage but rather desired effect. What I wonder, is why?

That, and how long it will take LL's legal department to get on it.

For almost all content thieft this tool is unusable, almost all items being sold in SL are way smaller that a sim, the buldozer just give the thiefs an unusalbe tool, Not given thet need to get a LL sim to use it and restore stuff into second life. This tool is not for content thiefs, it's only usable for sim owners that have all rights already. For all others it's unusable, it not to release for any reason it would be thnat rezzable probalt is the last company that made stuff that would need this kind of tool. All others that have any use of it already left....

Pavig Lok said:

"Builderbot currently _only_ allows content to be moved from SL to opensim - a specific use case. Moving content back the other way is not yet integrated and may not be released depending on how the product evolves."

Seems like this is already locked and loaded, ready to go.

"Builderbot _does_ check ownership on objects, and allows you to back up parts of a sim (such as a parcel) rather than simply a whole, or to only backup items by designated owner(s). "

Significantly, there is no check for DRM at all...  The risk is that rippers can also use the tool to take unauthorized copies.

This states pretty clearly that it does not (RaR has also stated that adding this check in would be so hard), or is completely optional at best.  For the bargain price of 100 dollars, download your very own copy of Armidi, The Abyss, Greenies, and Black Swan!   Or, just rez them and sell off the items piecemeal as malls in a box!

"Builderbot does not currently back up skins, clothing or scripts... only prims."

Not currently?  How long before you guys decide to drop that bomb as well?  But hey, there's already copybot for those small things.  Why settle for a skirt when you can take the entire SIM?

What is BuilderBot?  A set of tools to allow content owners to:

1. SIM2OAR = copy their prims into an OAR file
2. OAR editor to look at XML contents and merge, replace items
3. OAR2SL = a bot to rebuild a sim in SL from an OAR file.

Well what to say.
Lets look at something.  How may sims use mega prims in large scale builds?  Did you know you can not effectively back those up cause you never made them.  So you back it up to save locally or to move to open sim and wow the majority of the prims are missing.
My stance is this they tried to open a reasonable discussion under the assumption that professional builders would honor the rights of others. 

The tools are out there, what this does is make it easier for the people to manage and use a system to save and export their work.  Sure add DRM sure do this and this. You will also be the first group to complain "it only copied 70% of my stuff" "it takes hrs to save it" cause you have no damn clue about the systems.  As stated they were used in builds with various creators, you know how much coordination it takes for a group to even make a copy of a build, if they do all not have mod rights, all perms are not set right etc etc etc ...how many builders pro or not know the varied contortions that must be made to do these things.
 
I personally would love this tool.  ATM I pull xml backups of my items, save my own code local , and textures.  I also know all about copybot it's uses and how’s and where to get it , plus texture rippers etc.  That said I respect others and do not use them.  I also know how to grief and crash a sim in a few min but choose not to use that knowledge and actually patiently explain as I teach and talk to others that such and such an idea is wrong and violates TOS.

I have lost 70,000 items in SL thanks to LL and been told to go pound salt...alot of those were multiprim works and also sadly group builds.  Go through that a few times and then come back.  What lacks here is morals those without em will rip, steal, take what they can using what they will.  Those of us who have them and can be trusted with these tools meanwhile suffer and get jerked.  A tool like this in the hands of a moral person is a valuable asset if you can not see that then I feel sorry for you.  And for the record yelling, name calling and bashing out of fear and lack of knowledge is just sad.

I would love to see a Open source release, and if not I would be very interested in any info you wanted to share in regards to a system as this. 

And yes I posted anonymous cause I am to damn busy to deal with idiots who have no clue and would then waste my time.
 

I'd like to add my own two cents too.

I own and run three brands inworld, and one could say we're not really a small player in the fields we're involved in. I create myself since 2006 and I employ a couple of designers RL working on our SL projects too. As we're not only selling content inworld but also work with corporate clients on their inworld presences, I can see the potential benefits of the possibility to backup and transfer whole sims quite clearly. And yes, I WOULD LIKE to have such tool available too.

However, that being said, the potential benefit of the solution to me as sims owner doesn't even come anywhere close to balancing the potential risk this solution carries. I mean, how many people will be using the tool to backup their own sims versus how many will use it to steal content? The demand for BIABS is incomparable to demand for "backup solutions". Anyone can guess the route things will take, just as Rezzable can. And nice PR words can maybe hide the reality from the more idealistic or less involved ones, but not to the business owners who will be affected.

I think that including a perms check and not releasing the solution open source is the only way to keep the reputation of a honest company and a business partner to deal with in the future.

That's legally impossible to prevent people from using derivatives of code you released under an Open Source licence. See http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd (principles) and http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.txt (appliable text)

I would also see this suggestion as technically unenforceable.

But I agree that the fact that DRM are not enforced in builderbot is a real problem. It can bring its users into deep problems. What if you accidentally "aspire" the builds of your neighbours, or of objects you bought but did not create ?

The good thing : as this is open source code, it should be technically feasible to make an DRM-respectful version that would leave corporate and professional builders safe.

Cathy

this is simply theft,stealing what other created in many weeks and months of work.For sure the background isnt to backup your own work but to copy what others did.Its a shame!!!! What kick do you get out of this damaging honest people  that make a living in SL with what they create?!?!?

You are just greedy capitalists... Instead of having fun in SL, you want more and then more and then more... till the system collapses as it is happening in the USA (and then the whole world)

Frankly, it's a tool i've been thinking of making for a long time now, if rezzable fold and do not release it, i will make my own. 

Sounds like an excellent tool, can't wait to try the product. (Wish you had released this before people started being moved to Zindra).

Final nail in LL`s coffin

"When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it."
  - Bernard Bailey

~~~COUGH~~~REZZABLE~~~COUGH~~~

I have always LOVED the REZZABLE sims and stood in wonderment of the creations they have shared with us in Second Life.  What a pathetic choice of weapon you have chosen to use in your little virtual war with the LINDENS and SL. 

Keep this in mind....you are not hurting the LINDENS, you are spitting on other content creators who work as hard as you did to make something magical.....how would you respond to this kind of threat if it had been unleashed on you???

Keep This In Mind As Well:  Those of us in SL who are long term and invested will be using the other grids....your reputation and deeds will be carried over to the other grids...YIKES!!  I hope you will SERIOUSLY reconsider releasing this COPYBOT...if not for the good of the thousands of Artists in SL, then for the continued good of your own company.

~~Melli

Ectualy a great tool! and i can't wait for it's release :)

but i just have a few queastions.

i have a group build, unlinked, 4 Sims wide.

wich i would like to run on my own server/sims.

can builderbot handle unlinked prims and still now there location on the sim?

also how does it handle's texture's?

a normal copybot grab's the UUID form the SL asset server and sets it by the UUID. (on SL)

but my own server woul'd have that UUID nor all texture's and as it's a group build i don't have the have all, and we have to retexture the whole build(s).

@ Flibbity: "The tool isn't the problem, the people who use it are..Just because someone made a gun, doesn't mean he killed people.."

FYI that approach to guns is an American one, which the rest of the First World has rejected. Not saying it's not a valid approach, just saying it's a geographically limited one that not everyone shares.

I think that the real responsibility (and blame) for these things falls, not on the people who make such tools (there ARE legitimate uses for such)-- but on Linden Lab for failing to regulate them.  I'm not trying to unduly bust their chops here-- seriously-- but "with great power comes great responsibility".  Linden Lab created this world and are the "government" so to speak.  Customers are pretty much powerless to do anything about these tools or the CONSTANT CONTENT THEFT that occurs because of them.  Yet Linden Lab has repeatedly failed to properly secure and regulate their board.  That's pretty obvious.

The problem is simply that Linden Labs CANNOT regulate it, nobody has ever been able on a computer out of their control to allow you to see/hear something while denying you from copying it.

Linden Lab is very much aware of the copybot situation.  Simply sitting back and saying "No, no Johnny... don't do that" is not sufficient to the need.   ANY FORM of copying no-copy items, no-mod items, no-transfer items is abuse of the system. It is going beyond the intent, rights and properties of the creator.  However, we DO have the right to back up anything we personally create on SL in eventuality of product or platform destruction.

It is an issue that can't be solved with a technological solution, it's a legal issue and it has to be dealth through the law. IF it apply of course (there are countries that do not recognise foreign copyrights.)

OK, I've stated the need.  So how does one regulate such things?

1) Create TOS guidelines about how such tools are to be implemented (ie, register them with Linden Lab and provide a way to track usage of such so that illegitimate use can be reported)
Unfeasible, LL cannot detect wich client is a bot and wich isn't.
2) Implement software tracking systems to discern when copying tools are being used  (there ARE third-party, purchased tools that detect the use of copybot within world... proof that Linden Lab could implement such steps server-side).
I have yet to see such tools, a copying tool can be designed in such a way that it behave exactly like a regular client, there are actually several third party viewers that have such functions while staying a fully functional SL client program.
3) Device specific guidelines as to what is TOS-legal for copying/backing up-- and what is NOT legal ("backing up" no-copy items, for instance).
4) Require all restorations to be made in the name of the original content creator, not the one restoring an item.
This is impossible to enforce, to take an example there is no way to force me to mention you as the creator of a text if a copy paste it from a site to my notepad.
5) Require all restored permissions to be in original form (in other words, one cannot "restore" an item with full perms that didn't have full perms to start with).
Some clients do it but it's actually easier to make one without than one with, the permission system being ony a guideline sent by the server, the client can't actually be forced to follow it.

(what i mean is that the permission system is not a natural element that need specific mojo to circumvent, due to the nature of the data it's copyable as soon as it's visible, what you see is what it is)

These are just some off-the-top-of-my-head thoughts. I'm not saying these are THE solutions.  I'm not even saying they're feasible in the form I've presented (I believe they are, but I'm only one person thinking on the fly).  I am saying that something like this needs to be considered and implemented (and not in a half-baked manner) for the benefit of BOTH those who need a reliable backup method-- and the content creators who Linden Lab needs to protect.
No the reality is that we have either to accept the fact it can't be protected or change our business model.

Linden Lab has a tendency to totally absolve itself of all activities that occur on its board.  However, gross negligence in cases such as this is not legally absolvable.  They're involved, as the host company, and just like websites-- responsible for prevention of copyright infringement.  While tools such as copybot are not illegal or even against TOS-- imo Linden Lab certainly needs to implement procedures to insure such tools are not abused.

You can't control what's on someone else's computer, Microsoft can't even prevent peoples to use their OS without a license.

My only concern in such would be how Linden Lab traditionally implements "features".   They don't want griefers to use megaprims-- so they prevent legitimate creation of megaprims (and even though people have found a way around that, LOL... LL continues to be ridiculously stubborn on the issue).  To prevent griefers from using push-- they cripple legitimate uses of push.  LL's history of dealing with "problems" is not one of bright, sensible solutions.  

That the hospital making fun of the charity, all of you wanted  a solution against griefing, and when LL give you one you still complain.

My prediction:  eventually, these tools will become so widespread and powerful that all content will be open to anyone.  That will potentially cause collapse of the entire merchant system.  With the collapse of the merchant system, the entire face of SL will change.  When merchants no longer produce because their items are being copied right and left-- when content theft is so widespread that merchants just shut down their stores (thus shutting down land rentals, thus shutting down sims)... well, the extent of that consequence remains to be seen.  LL already made one major king-size blunder this year that forced the shutdown of thousands of sims. I'm just waiting for the other shoe to fall.  ;D

It is bound to happen if the "merchands" refuse to reconsider the way they create value, it's already crumbling all around for the movie and music industry, video game industry kinda found a solution by selling services (like mmorpg subscriptions) instead of selling electronic goods.

At this point, I'm not wondering IF Second Life will eventually fall.  I'm wondering which domino will topple and start the chain reaction.  When that happens (and we can just see it coming)... a tool like this could preserve the work and investments of countless users.  But steps need to be taken (as much as possible) to encourage legitimate use and discourage illegal activity.

You really think you can redesign the screwdriver so peoples can't stab eachothers with it?  Every tool has a flipside. Should we declare linux illegal because a free operating system threaten Microsoft and Apple?

@  Kyrah. "No the reality is that we have either to accept the fact it can't be protected "

Actually, it can be protected, and we don't need high-tech to do it. We have an old-fashioned tool with a three-letter name that can do it; it's spelt: l-a-w. And as ya know, whether or not you agree with the law don't amount to a hill of beans. Flailing against the law is like tilting at windmills. And *there's* your fact.

@ Anonymous (not verified): "Somehow I get the feeling that those against the builderbot are the same ones that would have been against the automobile because it would put horseshoers out of work."

Ah. So presumably the Americans are against "build your own nuke" kits because they'll put government workers out of work? Nothing to do with protecting Baltimore et al? To follow your line of "reasoning"?

The only "tool" is you, buddy.

I support you 100%  .  Good for you!

you can go the theivs but you can not go the person makes the tool.  If I break into your house, use a growbar to open your door and steal your shit, can you go the growbar company PLEASE, wake up people.

"However, I 100% agree that is would be very irresponsible to just put this product out there free and open source."

It isn't irresponsible to publish open source or free of charge software. It is done everyday in all legality and for happiness of many

What is irresponsible is to release this tool with no code to enforce the DRM. Not that the DRM have any technical efficiency in SL or in RL - they never had. But releasing this product without control for data ownership is just putting another copybot on the market, in the open. Okay, security by obscurity has never worked technically (and it will never work), but this is making the pirats' life just too easy.

Stop the confusion. The problem is not with open source code, the problem is with publishing a mere copybot. Which I suppose Linden Lab will not appreciate.

I advocate for releasing this product with DRM checks inside. SecondInventory does it, why not BuilderBot ?

There is no "debate" here. An overwhelming majority of those posting see this for what it is. It's understandable that some would choose to post anonymously for a multitude of reasons. What looks highly suspect is that nearly all of those in support of this content stealing tool (and the flippant tools who hope to make a buck from it) are anonymous.

We see what you did there, kids. 

I doubt that I'm the fist to suggest this but a boycott of all things Rezzable is clearly in order.  This boycott should be directed at your products, services, advertisers, the Rezzable Team, and all companies and/or subsidiaries you are affiliated with. 

You've shown a complete disregard for content creators and the SL community as a whole. Good luck with that gentleman.  

How about releasing it anonymously in a month or so?

To:  Kyrah Abattoir

Kyrah, I read your responses.  All I saw were a bunch of opinions... without real basis in fact.  No personal offense intended, but saying "no you can't" or "yes you can" without offering any real basis for such statements is fairly useless.

I'm sorry if you haven't seen any tools that can detect CopyBot-- I'd say you haven't looked very hard.

As far as "law" being the only way to stop this, I agree that's one way.  But in this case, Linden Lab is the "law" and the way all professional corporations stop content theft is by souping up their security.

No, you might not be able to stop the initial theft-- any more than you can (as the example given above) stop a thief from breaking into a house with a crowbar.  But you can set up "laws" which state "If we catch you doing so, you are going to face dire and serious consequences.  Word."  

The primary deterrent to criminal activity is making sure that the criminals know they will likely be caught and severely punished for the crime.  That doesn't totally eliminate crime-- but it surely makes people think twice.

Example:  Second Life forums are typically chuck full of griefers and trolls and flamers and drama queens-- to the point that serious, legitimate users often refuse to use those forums.  On the other hand, the forums of several professional magazines are almost flamer-free.  Why?  Because they have strict rules on how the forums are to be used and they ENFORCE those rules.

Sure, a griefer can open a fake account, use CopyBot and swipe software.  Upon discovery (on Second Life or another Grid), Linden Lab could then show some gnards and perma-ban that person from their system, all of their avatars, their IP address (even if it's non-static) and for good measure-- their computer identifier (almost all computers these days have such.  If not-- Linden Lab could write such into the client code to set up a personal identification).  If the theft is bad enough... they can report the person to local authorities as a hacker-- and let the authorities take care of it.  (Of course, that would require more than a simple "email-only" registration.  It would require proof of ID to even join the board.)

Bottom line, Linden Lab can police their own board in a more than lip-service manner.  And they can start (for once) releasing the names of those who have been removed from the board for such activities (personal rights end where criminal activity begins).

Yes, there ARE ways to determine if someone is illegally copying someone else's work.  It's called "built-in software security".  Copybot works by duplicating an already existing build in-world; there are already tools designed to detect it and Linden Lab has already announced it's a severe TOS violation to use Copybot on any item but your own property (So no, contrary to claims, Copybot is not against TOS; the illegal use of Copybot is so).  

Claiming that there is no way to protect content against thieves is frankly a defeatist attitude.  It's giving in to the criminals and saying "Let them steal; we can't stop them."  That's foolish reasoning.  What a company does is use every resource at its disposal to beat the thieves at their own game.  They may not be able to stop it entirely-- but they can sure stop the majority of it.  

On Second Life-- one of the advantages we have is evidence.  When someone steals using any cloning program-- their name is all over the evidence, as well as the date of creation.  That makes such theft pretty easy to track.
 

PS-- To those who can't make a point without insulting others-- may I earnestly and sincerely recommend some therapy and anger-control classes?  You don't make valid points by insulting those who disagree with you.  It just points to  the person doing so appear as being an immature troll.  Make your point, keep it polite, respect the opinions of others who disagree with you.  Your personal opinion is not Word of God or law of the universe-- and believe it or not-- you may even be wrong.  So lighten up.  If you want people to respect your thoughts-- respect theirs. 

What about releasing a version that can work with the new permission systems you are building into Heritage Key, as reported by Massively: "Rezzable has poured effort into arranging a custom viewer for the Heritage Key experience, as well as extending OpenSim servers with solid content permissions systems." [ http://www.massively.com/2009/07/07/rezzable-moves-on-from-second-life/ ]

1st anyone who depends on a game for their income is in trouble long before someone steals their shit, so more fool them. it is only a matter of time til there is no money to be made in 3d worlds like SL.  Its newish, so yeah, big whack in the begining, but more and more people are learning to create their own shit, they are not even going to need creators the market is already filled with duplicated creations (not copied, just same ideas) and varing prices.  so sooner or later these peole are gonna have to get a real job

2nd i don't actually know when something is stolen content even if i know the brand, sometimes i would, sometimes i wouldn't.  regardless, i and many others like me are going to buy it anyway, thats life.  thats why there is always a black market in rl and in sl for stolen content.

"am i condoning theft, copyright infringements, IP theft, maybe.  but don't you think the creators get a bit over the top about all this.  i mean is it REALLY illegale to buy it, if it is I still don't care"

You talk "real life" and "that's just the way it is"... then let's do that.  I don't respect criminals... and I do hold them accountable for their actions.  And as a content creator-- I will bust them every way possible-- both in-world and RL-- when I find them doing so.  I'm sure your SL attitude toward breaking the law is evidenced in your RL as well.  My experience is that such people eventually find themselves in serious hot water because of such attitude.  It's just a matter of time. 

It's your opinion eventually there will be no marketing on 3D worlds.  I'd have to say that's a statement that ignores history.  Computer marketing increases every year-- in all venues.  Internet shopping is a billions-dollars business.   Shopping for virtual world items is a multi-million dollar business. If you don't think that will increase as time goes along and VR becomes more sophisticated-- then we'll just have to disagree.

Just as you don't care whether something is illegal or not (frankly, a criminal attitude)... I don't care what you personally believe regarding such things (except as your beliefs cause you to break Federal law).   You think people are idiots for merchanting on SL (maybe that's right... LL sure doesn't seem to protect merchant rights) and say they should get a "real job".  Sorry, I find your entire attitude offensive and unethical.  About the only thing your posts have shown to me are things I already knew:  1) There are people both in SL and RL who just don't care about anyone but themselves and what they want and 2) That's exactly why LL needs to step up security.  The reason we have jails is to contain people without social or ethical responsibiilty or self-moderation.

I don't say these things to be offensive; I say them to be factual.  Those without any regard for the law-- need to be removed from the society those laws serve to protect.

Agreed.

 you think I care what you think, wrong, I dont care

I don't adhere to fed law becuase I'm not a yank, don't live in the usa, so it doen't apply to me

I've never committed a crime, i'm not a criminal, and you don't know me

SL creators are making less and less money, it's a fact, face it buddy anyone can do what you do, so get over yourself

the tool is not you

it overwrite the perms and creator.. once you scanned the sim, even if you are with good intention, how will you know 'ahh that s no a copy item so i have only 3 and cant use more.. '

and deleting the content maker is stupid too.. it s to have no respect for..

this tool is made from looser rezzable made some sims and is no more..

Rezzable has not changed at all. All that changed is they were made aware of the laws in their country.

They are still intent on destroying Second Life in retaliation to themselves for being total failures.